photo: www.weekendhobby.com

Prachatai talked with Pornsuk Kerdsawang, editor of Friends without Borders, a small magazine launched in 1999 and devoted to covering stories of refugees from Burma living in refugee camps along the Burma-Thailand border.

What is the situation inside the refugee camps after the Burmese junta crushed the demonstrations by the monks and people?

Normally, the refugees [who are mostly ethnic minorities] would say they hate the Burmese. But after the violent clashes, they would differentiate the Burmese people from the Burmese military or government. They say even if they are Karen living in Thailand, they feel the same pain as those inside Burma. That is a good sign.

And lately there have been Burmese refugees transferred here, and they had a bad attitude toward the Muslims in the camp. But after the incidents in Burma they joined the protests together, making the same call to release political prisoners.

They had planned to have more demonstrations, but now the deputy district chief has banned all activities after the provincial governor was instructed by Bangkok to forbid any movement.

What happened in Burma has made some refugees who plan to go the third countries hesitant because if they go, that would mean they have no hope of returning to their home. But staying here under these conditions is also hopeless.

Are there many refugees who wish to go to the third countries?

Yes, there are now. Previously there were not many. There have been rumours that make people who didn't want to go in the first place decide to go. The rumours have a strong influence in the camps because there's no other channel of communication. It's been rumoured that if they won't go to third countries, they would not be allowed to stay here, and would be pushed back to Burma. Or food would no longer be provided. So they are at a loss; no food provided and no work permitted.

Are the rumours from the Thai authorities?

I can't say that. But some camps in Tham Hin (in Ratchaburi's Suan Phueng district where nearly 90% of the refugees are Karen) are planned to be closed. So the authorities have to try to convince them [to go to third countries]. The authorities said they were frustrated as there are 16 families left who are not willing to go, and they were instructed to keep trying to convince them.

Do those refugees who don't sign on to the resettlement programme hope to return home to Burma?

They do hope to return home. And if that is impossible, the elderly wish to die near their home. Some think that living here is undesirable in many ways, but it's still similar to their home, with Thai Karen villages around. Those who want to go are mostly the young, and their parents perhaps have to go along out of concern for their children's future.

What is the age range of the refugees?

As far as I can remember, 30% of them are children under 12. Children under 18 have yet to be accounted for. I think there are many teenagers as they were born here.

What education is there for the children under 12?

The Karen people run their own schools in the camps with funding from NGOs. However, in recent years education requires expenses. There's no tuition fee, but it has become like the Thai education system where parents have to pay for books and uniforms. On Fridays, they are required to dress in their tribal clothes. They don't grow cotton and produce the cotton cloth themselves, they have to buy it. And if they don't go out to work, they have to sell their rice to buy those things.

What are those schools attached to?

They're attached to the Karen National Union (KNU), under the Karen's Education Ministry. But there are NGOs working on education who give funding support and train teachers. The teachers are refugees in the camps. Many are young teachers. Now it's become a problem, because the educated have all gone to third countries. Karen teachers and nurses have gone. They have to recruit and train new persons.

The schools are still running, but the quality gets worse, because the teachers are those who finished school in the camps. Previously, they were trained teachers from Karen state which must have a better standard. Now teachers and pupils are almost the same age, 16-17 years old. And they are preparing to go to third countries as well. Now there's a shortage of teachers, and the expenses are high. Some families have no money, so the children stop going to school, or they don't want to go to school because they don't have books.

Does the Thai government give any help?

No. There are only NGOs that help. The Thai government just permits the NGOs to work here. In fact, the Thai Education Ministry's Non-Formal Education Department has just started to step in, but to teach Thai, which was formerly prohibited. Ironically, when it becomes OK to learn Thai, people are preparing themselves to go to other countries, hence there is less interest in learning. The Non-Formal Education Department still tries nevertheless. But the Karen have become wary about whether it's good or not, as it might change their system. They don't feel comfortable, and the Thai government doesn't give any money anyway.

How should the Thai government help the refugees in the camps?

The refugees need to work to make a living. They haven't been accommodated there temporarily, but for over twenty years now. They're allowed to live and eat, but not to work, and people say they are lazy. They want to work but they're not permitted to. If they venture out of the camps, they run the risk of being arrested, extorted or sexually abused in the case of women. Or some of them were taken and dropped at Myawaddy in Burma, rather than returned to their camps.

When migrant workers sneak in through another channel, we allow them to register as migrant workers. But these refugees live here, why aren't they given some flexibility? They aren't even able to attend their relatives' weddings in other camps, and they have to sneak or bribe their way in. If they are permitted to work, any registration system will do, they would be able to support themselves to a certain extent, and rely less on assistance. They would live with more dignity, and they would take better care of the schools, rather than living stressful lives from day to day.

Are they stressed living in the camps?

They have come to live in an environment different from that of their home in Burma. 40,000 of them from different localities have to squeeze into the camps. Women may still do the same household chores, but the men are jobless. Many studies found that there is a high degree of stress among the men, and domestic violence is also high, which never happened in their real homes or never to that extent. The teenagers are alright when they are in school, but when they're out of school they just stroll around with nothing to do, and want to emulate what they see on Thai television, but they have no money.

So what they want is freedom, not to get arrested when they leave the camps. The authorities don't want them to go far, but they perhaps don't want to either. When it was not so strict, they just went to work for the local Karen.

When they were allowed to work outside the camps, they didn't make trouble, did they?

No. The first generation got assistance for half of their needs. They could find food themselves, and needed only important medicines and education. They mostly worked in the villages nearby, and just a few went far, because they were also worried about their families. But since the Thai authorities became strict, they have become completely dependent on assistance as they are forbidden to work. Now the refugees are forbidden to go outside, and outsiders are also not allowed in. If we think we treat them right, why are we afraid of what outsiders will see? That shows they are aware that it's not so good inside.

Have you ever been to refugee camps in other countries to compare them with ours?

I've never been to such camps. But I went to where refugees lived in freedom. In Africa, there are hundreds of thousands of refugees. Of course, at first there must have been camps with fences to prevent attacks, because there were many armed troops. But after a period of time things have become more flexible. In various places in Africa, small plots of farmland are provided. What I have seen was that they receive some aid and cultivate their lands. It's impossible to let them stay idle for 10-20 years.

Camps are for emergency situations, but this is no longer an emergency as we have had the refugee camps since 1984.

Some readers of ours wrote to us commenting that we need to understand the Thai government. It's like allowing people to enter our house, walk in our garden, so we have to be careful in case they step on our flowers, or damage anything. Some freedoms must be compromised. We agree. We don't know who is who, but we have to think that they are not here just to walk around, but they have lived here for 20 years. How can we let them live like that? Can we give them better chance? That would be good for Thailand as well.

And whatever problems there are inside the camps would not be restricted to just inside the camps. If there was, say, violence, they would flee, and there would be the problem of human trafficking, which is big. And drugs starts to come, easy to find. In weak societies, teenagers would turn to drugs. Now there are NGOs working on this. The problems have become increasingly serious.

It seems if things remain like this, the problems would probably break out at some point.

We try to solve the problems by encouraging them to go abroad. There are newcomers who came after the registration by the UN 3-4 years ago, so they are not yet registered. At first the NGOs could accommodate them all, but this year they said they could not take them as they are not refugees.

And now it's reported that these unqualified people will be pushed to live in a village in Karen State, which is well known to us. It's a small village with 600 residents; it's a new settlement, not a permanent village, surrounded by minefields. And next to it is the area of the DKBA (Democratic Karen Buddhist Army) which is an ally of the Burmese junta, and further on is the area of the Burmese army. So it would be a slum, and a military target.

How can they live there? Eventually they will come back, as migrant workers, totally uncontrollable. We always choose the easy way out.

What do you suggestions have about the refugee problem in Thailand, at least to calm the situation down a bit?

We must accept the fact that there still are refugees in Thailand. Don't pretend there aren't any. Accept the fact so that we take good care or do it right. Don't deny it and push them back. Let's do it right with all due process like screening, interviewing.

And is it time to rethink about those who have been here for 20 years. If they can go to work outside, that would benefit us and them, and the intensity inside the camps would lessen. And life in the camps would improve, and assistance can be reduced, instead of massive aid being injected all the time.

And we should take a look at ourselves, and what we have done. It all has an impact directly or indirectly. For example, Thai investment encourages the Burmese government to grow castor-oil plants in Karen State north of Shan State, and many local people have been displaced. And Mon State is planned for monocultures like pineapple. Local people are forced to grow what the government wants, or else they risk losing their land or paying fines. And finally they cannot carry on, and they have no money to buy rice, as they do not grow rice anymore.

How else does the Thai government support the Burmese junta?

The Salween dam projects. More and more Burmese troops have come in, and more people have fled. And they are now not allowed to cross the border, so they just stay on the border with some aid provided. We must not help create the problems. We get natural gas and electricity plus refugees and death. We make them die.

Translated by Ponglert Pongwanan